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this is the cosmos

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a network of a hundred billion galaxies

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and it's the greatest story science has

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life on earth is one of the unsolved

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mysteries of science

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come with me

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our journey

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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welcome to the skeptic zone episode

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number 279 for the 23rd of february 2013

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richard saunders here with you from

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sydney australia and yes that clip

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before the theme music might have given

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you a hint

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a clue

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an inkling an insight into what's coming

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up on this week's show we have an

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interview with dr neil degrasse tyson

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and anderin all about the new

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cosmos tv series i was very fortunate to

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meet uh anne and neil as they insisted i

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call them

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in sydney in the last few days

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brought here by the wonderful people at

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the national geographic channel

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and a big shout out to the national

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geographic channel especially cassie

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crofts at the nat geo

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who was so helpful

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in providing me information and other

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things

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and getting this interview together

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now for those people in australia the

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big news is cosmos starts showing on the

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national geographic channel

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sunday the 16th of march at 7 30 pm

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and for our listeners elsewhere in the

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world especially in the us

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to read from the uh

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the press release

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fox network's group announces the first

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ever simultaneous cross network global

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premiere event for cosmos a space time

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odyssey

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on sunday march 9th now this will

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premiere across 10 us networks including

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fox national geographic channel

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fx

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fox sports 1 fox sports 2 net geo wild

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net geo mundo and fox live

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multi network simulcast sponsored by

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samsung galaxy

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and the chrysler brand well thank you to

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those people so that's the date to

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remember for the people in the u.s and

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some other countries

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check your local uh guides as they say

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march 9th is the date in australia it's

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march 16th

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now if you want to win a cosmos pack

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including an autographed copy of the

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cosmos book autographed by neil degrasse

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tyson and anderin

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download next week's episode of the

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skeptic zone 4

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details of a new competition

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first prize of course that wonderful

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cosmos prize pack courtesy of the

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national geographic channel

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after the cosmos interviews it's a week

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in science from the royal institution of

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and then to round off the show it's dr

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rachie reports now a couple of weeks ago

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on the show we had the story of dr ken

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harvey and why he resigned his position

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at la trobe university over the deal

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with the swiss vitamin company

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dr raichi interviews ken and finds out

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more about his uh decision and more

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about the whole controversy and it's

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really turned into a

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quite a story that's dr raichi reports

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to round off this week's episode now

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before we get stuck into the show a

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quick couple of notes in 2012 and 2013

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it was my great pleasure to attend the

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qed question explore discover convention

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in manchester in the in the uk

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that's coming up again that will be held

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at the palace hotel in manchester on the

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12th and 13th of april 2014

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tickets are going fast this is a

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convention not to be missed it's simply

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one of the best ones i've ever attended

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around the world and i've certainly seen

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my share

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uh best thing to do is quickly head to

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if you're going to be in the uk around

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april it's worth a side trip

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in fact it's worth a trip from the other

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side of the planet

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wow and what a lineup they have for

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this year including paul zenin he's a

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really fabulous entertainer and magician

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and a good skeptic too dr richard

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wiseman who was on the show last week

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always entertaining we have people oh

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one of my favorite people in the world

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in fact uh susan gerbic from gorilla

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skepticism will be there

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robert llewellyn from red dwarf he's

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going to be making appearance mark

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edward

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sanal atamataku

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the list goes on don't miss it qed

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this april in manchester

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and one last plug before we get into the

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show don't forget you can get your

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weekly fix of our reporter maynard you

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don't have to hear him on the zone he's

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not on every week what a pity

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head to maynard.com dot a u for crazy

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interviews music and more and now it's

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time to run downstairs and have a nice

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cup of hot chocolate this week while we

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the cosmos

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is all it is

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or ever was

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come with me

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a generation ago the astronomer carl

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sagan stood here and launched hundreds

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of millions of us on a great adventure

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the exploration of the universe revealed

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by science

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we're about to begin a journey that will

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take us from the infinitesimal to the

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infinite from the dawn of time to the

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distant future

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we'll explore galaxies and suns and

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worlds

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surf the gravity waves of space-time

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encounter beings that live in fire and

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ice

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explore the planets of stars that never

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die

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discover atoms as massive as suns and

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universes smaller than atoms

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cosmos is also a story about us

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it's the saga of how wandering bands of

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hunters and gatherers found their way to

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one adventure

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well i'm delighted to be here in uh a

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wonderful what a wonderful view my

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goodness me i'm looking at the sydney

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harbour bridge out the window but

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certainly the uh company i'm keeping

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right now is just as wonderful as the

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view i'm with dr neil degrasse tyson

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welcome to australia thank you my i'm

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only my second time here and the first

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time where i'm spending any meaningful

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time so it's great everybody's been

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friendly the view is gorgeous it's it's

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more beautiful than the already

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beautiful images that we all know

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uh represent sydney it's almost like

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it's in the states it's like a postcard

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looking out there and i'm with andrean

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hello hello how are you i'm i'm beside

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myself i must admit and

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right sitting next to me right here is a

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15 year old boy yep who stayed up late

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in country australia the countryside

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little country town

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to watch a show called cosmos in 1981

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and couldn't believe how great how great

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it was

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thank you

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well i'm i'm

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completely gratified and very proud on

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behalf of

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carl and myself that it has such a place

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in your heart it certainly does and i

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would not be here and i would not be in

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the position i am in in life if it

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wasn't for that [\h__\h]

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there's no two ways about it you know

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there's lots of influences on one's life

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over the years but that certainly is one

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of the major ones

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for me but this is something you must

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have heard by now well you know i've

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thought for decades of doing an actual

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census

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of sending out the word perhaps through

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one of the scientific organizations and

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saying please let us know if you

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uh read science teach science do science

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are connected in any way to the

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scientific enterprise as a result

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of cosmos or something else that carl

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sagan did

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and i think that would be a very an

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astronomical number

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i suspect you're right because the

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original series and we'll get to the new

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series in a moment the original series

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was viewed by a staggering amount of

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people wasn't it yes i mean i think we

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stopped counting once we could make the

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case for three quarters of a billion

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with a b of as in billions and billions

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people

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worldwide and i think that number must

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have been overtaken because cosmos still

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lives in so many different formats and

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and the audience now for the original

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series is very young

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by the way just to amend what ann said

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one could take a poll and find out who

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brought science or any part of its

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enterprise into their professional

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identity either others teachers or

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researchers or lab technicians this sort

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of thing but there's another sort of

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hidden dimension to this and that is the

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power of something such as cosmos to

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affect people even if they're not

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scientists or have no such ambition

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because it can change your outlook

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on

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now become a politician but you saw

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cosmos you will think differently when

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the vote comes up about how you allocate

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money

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is it to the war machine is it to

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science research is it to to

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humanitarian causes and so i'd like to

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think of the influences of cosmos not

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only

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can it transform

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whether you become a scientist or not

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but can transform

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our culture

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in such a way that science can be

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embraced

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by everyone whether or not you made it

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your career

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absolutely it works on so many levels

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when you look at it at that respect what

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dragged me in if that's the right turn

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what captivated me

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um

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from the very first episode was

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carl sagan sitting in this spaceship

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with the imagination here we go

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and suddenly oh stars die yeah and stars

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are born and this happens

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then came uh if

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and you may correct me here of course in

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the original series in the first episode

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i think carl sagan

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visited a recreation of the library of

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alexandria absolutely correct

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which was fascinating and he lamented

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the fact that these this was lost to

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history now in the new series we have uh

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dr neil degrasse tyson in the spaceship

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of the imagination somewhat more

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modernized i must say it's very sexy and

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actually designed by ryan church who's

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famous for designing the spacecraft for

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j.j abrams and various other blockbuster

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movies one of the many cinematic talents

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attracted to the new cosmos series

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out of

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love and admiration for the original

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yeah and by the way it's badass but it

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doesn't get in the way

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it's it's a remarkable combination of it

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00:12:33,030 --> 00:12:30,639
is sheer beauty to behold it

282
00:12:34,790 --> 00:12:33,040
but when we're telling the story

283
00:12:37,190 --> 00:12:34,800
you're not thinking about the ship

284
00:12:39,430 --> 00:12:37,200
the ship is just kind of

285
00:12:42,150 --> 00:12:39,440
framing for how we're getting to where

286
00:12:44,150 --> 00:12:42,160
we're going and and you could imagine a

287
00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:44,160
ship that was all about the ship

288
00:12:49,750 --> 00:12:47,120
and then that would be a distraction and

289
00:12:51,910 --> 00:12:49,760
so it's a very clever

290
00:12:53,829 --> 00:12:51,920
response to anne's description of what

291
00:12:56,550 --> 00:12:53,839
this ship needed to be

292
00:12:59,190 --> 00:12:56,560
in the script and so

293
00:13:01,990 --> 00:12:59,200
uh i'm happy to say that

294
00:13:03,829 --> 00:13:02,000
yes it's a bit of futuristic technology

295
00:13:06,310 --> 00:13:03,839
but it's not really about that

296
00:13:08,389 --> 00:13:06,320
well it's it's it's not only a way for

297
00:13:09,670 --> 00:13:08,399
you to have a look at these things but

298
00:13:11,030 --> 00:13:09,680
we're having a look at these things

299
00:13:13,430 --> 00:13:11,040
because you're having a look at these

300
00:13:14,949 --> 00:13:13,440
things and the only way

301
00:13:16,870 --> 00:13:14,959
we can realistically have a look at

302
00:13:18,150 --> 00:13:16,880
these things if we pretend we're in a

303
00:13:21,509 --> 00:13:18,160
spaceship having a look at these things

304
00:13:22,949 --> 00:13:21,519
and i must say i got a laugh uh

305
00:13:24,949 --> 00:13:22,959
when you're

306
00:13:28,790 --> 00:13:24,959
plowing through the solar system and you

307
00:13:32,150 --> 00:13:30,629
that was quite funny and it was a

308
00:13:33,190 --> 00:13:32,160
beautiful thing because then we saw the

309
00:13:34,389 --> 00:13:33,200
disc

310
00:13:36,389 --> 00:13:34,399
the very famous

311
00:13:39,990 --> 00:13:36,399
disc with the music and the imagery on

312
00:13:42,870 --> 00:13:40,000
it there are many moments in episode one

313
00:13:43,990 --> 00:13:42,880
that pre-figure

314
00:13:46,069 --> 00:13:44,000
events

315
00:13:48,470 --> 00:13:46,079
and experiences that will come much

316
00:13:50,230 --> 00:13:48,480
later and so wow

317
00:13:52,310 --> 00:13:50,240
it's not just establishing our

318
00:13:54,069 --> 00:13:52,320
coordinates in space and time the

319
00:13:56,870 --> 00:13:54,079
address yes the address our cosmic

320
00:14:00,310 --> 00:13:56,880
address yes yeah but uh and the cosmic

321
00:14:02,629 --> 00:14:00,320
calendar but also it's a way of

322
00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:02,639
beginning a kind of um

323
00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:04,720
a series of adventures

324
00:14:07,590 --> 00:14:05,760
that

325
00:14:10,069 --> 00:14:07,600
some of which uh

326
00:14:12,069 --> 00:14:10,079
you know we will we'll return to in

327
00:14:13,350 --> 00:14:12,079
later episodes

328
00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:13,360
my favorite

329
00:14:19,189 --> 00:14:16,880
bit of the coming upon voyager was you

330
00:14:20,389 --> 00:14:19,199
get close enough to it to see yes not

331
00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:20,399
only that there's the record there and

332
00:14:22,710 --> 00:14:22,000
you hear some of the sounds

333
00:14:25,750 --> 00:14:22,720
but

334
00:14:26,870 --> 00:14:25,760
it's a little tattered yes it's a little

335
00:14:27,670 --> 00:14:26,880
i was getting weather beaten but of

336
00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:27,680
course

337
00:14:31,430 --> 00:14:29,360
in space

338
00:14:33,430 --> 00:14:31,440
there are micro meteoroids that that

339
00:14:35,590 --> 00:14:33,440
will sort of nick and ding

340
00:14:37,670 --> 00:14:35,600
your otherwise freshly launched shiny

341
00:14:39,829 --> 00:14:37,680
surface yeah and so you got the sense

342
00:14:41,670 --> 00:14:39,839
that this this has been traveling a

343
00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:41,680
while that you're not going no that's

344
00:14:45,110 --> 00:14:44,320
exactly what we had in mind and the idea

345
00:14:46,629 --> 00:14:45,120
was

346
00:14:49,189 --> 00:14:46,639
that you know

347
00:14:51,590 --> 00:14:49,199
because of the record and because of it

348
00:14:53,110 --> 00:14:51,600
that the fact that it was my honor to be

349
00:14:54,949 --> 00:14:53,120
the creative director of the

350
00:14:57,110 --> 00:14:54,959
interstellar message

351
00:14:59,910 --> 00:14:57,120
uh i

352
00:15:01,110 --> 00:14:59,920
many nights of the year i lie awake

353
00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:01,120
imagining

354
00:15:05,910 --> 00:15:03,920
where voyager where both voyagers really

355
00:15:07,430 --> 00:15:05,920
are and what it would be like to ride

356
00:15:09,269 --> 00:15:07,440
alongside them

357
00:15:11,350 --> 00:15:09,279
and really feel

358
00:15:14,389 --> 00:15:11,360
you know what they

359
00:15:17,350 --> 00:15:14,399
cannot feel but if they were human what

360
00:15:20,389 --> 00:15:17,360
it would be like and i've imagined this

361
00:15:21,509 --> 00:15:20,399
countless times in the last 35 years

362
00:15:24,310 --> 00:15:21,519
knowing

363
00:15:27,110 --> 00:15:24,320
these are the most distant objects ever

364
00:15:29,030 --> 00:15:27,120
touched by humans yes yes and and not

365
00:15:32,150 --> 00:15:29,040
only that that they have a future shelf

366
00:15:35,430 --> 00:15:32,160
life of a thousand million years and

367
00:15:36,310 --> 00:15:35,440
that shelf life has been determined

368
00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:36,320
by

369
00:15:43,269 --> 00:15:40,320
the genius engineers and designers uh

370
00:15:45,670 --> 00:15:43,279
and mathematicians who designed the

371
00:15:47,269 --> 00:15:45,680
trajectories of the mission

372
00:15:49,670 --> 00:15:47,279
they were

373
00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:49,680
saying that their spacecraft would last

374
00:15:54,710 --> 00:15:52,800
for perhaps 10 or 15 years and here 35

375
00:15:56,310 --> 00:15:54,720
years later it's still teaching us

376
00:15:58,310 --> 00:15:56,320
things so who knows if a thousand

377
00:15:59,749 --> 00:15:58,320
million years even covers the whole

378
00:16:01,990 --> 00:15:59,759
future of voyager and we're still

379
00:16:04,310 --> 00:16:02,000
getting uh communications from them and

380
00:16:07,990 --> 00:16:04,320
we still have weak though

381
00:16:11,350 --> 00:16:08,000
i mean we call across 19 18 19 light

382
00:16:13,829 --> 00:16:11,360
hours to voyager and then 18 19 light

383
00:16:16,269 --> 00:16:13,839
hours later we get a return signal

384
00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:16,279
that's how brilliant with this early

385
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:19,440
1970s technology of course yes of course

386
00:16:23,269 --> 00:16:21,360
unbelievable and by the way at the time

387
00:16:25,030 --> 00:16:23,279
the original cosmos aired voyager had

388
00:16:27,670 --> 00:16:25,040
not really gotten anywhere yet i mean it

389
00:16:29,590 --> 00:16:27,680
was launched in 1977 and it was an

390
00:16:31,910 --> 00:16:29,600
entire there was a tour of the planets

391
00:16:33,829 --> 00:16:31,920
that was sort of fortuitously juxtaposed

392
00:16:35,749 --> 00:16:33,839
so that you would slingshot around one

393
00:16:37,509 --> 00:16:35,759
it would aim you to the next planet

394
00:16:40,230 --> 00:16:37,519
slingshot around that get you to the

395
00:16:42,790 --> 00:16:40,240
next one and so the original cosmos did

396
00:16:44,710 --> 00:16:42,800
not have the benefit of celebrating

397
00:16:47,189 --> 00:16:44,720
the full voyage that cosmos would take

398
00:16:51,269 --> 00:16:47,199
but no it did it did no no but i mean

399
00:16:55,670 --> 00:16:53,269
it had been to some interesting places

400
00:16:57,110 --> 00:16:55,680
isn't there a scene and i'm sure there

401
00:16:58,550 --> 00:16:57,120
is and you know exactly what i'm about

402
00:17:00,470 --> 00:16:58,560
to say

403
00:17:02,150 --> 00:17:00,480
the picture it gets back to the jet

404
00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:02,160
propulsion laboratory from the outer

405
00:17:05,990 --> 00:17:04,079
cell so the benefit

406
00:17:09,350 --> 00:17:06,000
you may not have seen it or saw the

407
00:17:11,429 --> 00:17:09,360
scene some time ago uh dr sagan is in in

408
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:11,439
a lab he's at the jet propulsion level

409
00:17:15,270 --> 00:17:13,120
laboratory and he's saying and this

410
00:17:25,909 --> 00:17:15,280
picture has arrived now and yeah there

411
00:17:32,870 --> 00:17:29,110
and it's in an episode called travelers

412
00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:32,880
and it was um you know carl just

413
00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:36,000
absolutely so brilliant in explaining a

414
00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:36,960
very

415
00:17:41,350 --> 00:17:38,799
uh complex

416
00:17:43,590 --> 00:17:41,360
idea of how a picture gets back from the

417
00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:43,600
outer solar system it was a delightful

418
00:17:48,390 --> 00:17:46,080
scene because it's it was so dramatic in

419
00:17:50,310 --> 00:17:48,400
a way it's not set up it's not uh

420
00:17:52,549 --> 00:17:50,320
reversed let's do this it's like i was

421
00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:52,559
there you're absolutely right

422
00:17:55,270 --> 00:17:54,240
there were no chase scenes or explosions

423
00:17:56,710 --> 00:17:55,280
or anything

424
00:17:59,590 --> 00:17:56,720
no and nobody

425
00:18:01,350 --> 00:17:59,600
nobody nobody hits anyone it's really

426
00:18:03,110 --> 00:18:01,360
amazing yeah how's that even possible

427
00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:03,120
yeah but but that's an interesting point

428
00:18:07,110 --> 00:18:05,280
you bring up because um

429
00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:07,120
one of the things that captivated me in

430
00:18:11,029 --> 00:18:09,360
the original series was uh

431
00:18:12,150 --> 00:18:11,039
the special effects and i have to you

432
00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:12,160
know i'll be upfront about that of

433
00:18:16,870 --> 00:18:13,760
course i was a 15 year old kid it looked

434
00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:16,880
like i was in space and watching the

435
00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:18,880
first series uh the first episode of the

436
00:18:24,150 --> 00:18:22,000
new series there is a wonderful moment

437
00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:24,160
and i don't think it lasts more than

438
00:18:27,270 --> 00:18:25,760
five or six seconds

439
00:18:30,070 --> 00:18:27,280
where you're hovering above the great

440
00:18:33,190 --> 00:18:30,080
red spot on jupiter and it's got depth

441
00:18:34,470 --> 00:18:33,200
oh yes and i nearly fell off my chair if

442
00:18:36,549 --> 00:18:34,480
you look if you look and the clouds are

443
00:18:37,750 --> 00:18:36,559
turning yeah yeah so if you if you look

444
00:18:40,230 --> 00:18:37,760
carefully

445
00:18:42,230 --> 00:18:40,240
everything there is in motion yeah so

446
00:18:44,150 --> 00:18:42,240
they're like turbulent eddies what we

447
00:18:47,350 --> 00:18:44,160
learned from our close approaches to the

448
00:18:50,710 --> 00:18:47,360
outer planets is that yes the great red

449
00:18:52,710 --> 00:18:50,720
spot is a coherent turning system but on

450
00:18:54,710 --> 00:18:52,720
the boundary between the red spot and

451
00:18:57,270 --> 00:18:54,720
the outer areas there are these like

452
00:18:58,789 --> 00:18:57,280
turbulent little eddies that represent

453
00:19:01,430 --> 00:18:58,799
many little

454
00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:01,440
circular circulation systems and and in

455
00:19:05,830 --> 00:19:03,760
that view you if you watch it carefully

456
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:05,840
you will see them turn and and let me

457
00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:07,600
say that for the first seven or eight

458
00:19:13,110 --> 00:19:10,480
versions of that shot they didn't turn

459
00:19:15,350 --> 00:19:13,120
and reiner gambos who's our vfx

460
00:19:16,950 --> 00:19:15,360
supervisor and who's done a absolutely

461
00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:16,960
brilliant job you know he'd show it to

462
00:19:21,830 --> 00:19:19,760
me and say they're not turning you know

463
00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:21,840
and he he

464
00:19:26,549 --> 00:19:24,400
created something magnificent and they

465
00:19:28,390 --> 00:19:26,559
now they now turn

466
00:19:30,470 --> 00:19:28,400
because you know if you're looking in a

467
00:19:33,190 --> 00:19:30,480
world and it's not turning or you're

468
00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:33,200
looking at a you know a cloud a system

469
00:19:39,430 --> 00:19:37,200
or a storm system it's not moving

470
00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:39,440
you and that your ability to suspend

471
00:19:45,110 --> 00:19:42,000
disbelief fractures you got to get the

472
00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:45,120
physics right and what we've tried very

473
00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:48,640
hard with bran and braga and uh director

474
00:19:54,150 --> 00:19:51,360
one and and bill pope and with writer

475
00:19:54,950 --> 00:19:54,160
gumbos and these geniuses

476
00:19:55,990 --> 00:19:54,960
is

477
00:20:00,390 --> 00:19:56,000
to

478
00:20:02,710 --> 00:20:00,400
right so that you really have the

479
00:20:04,789 --> 00:20:02,720
fullness of being out

480
00:20:06,390 --> 00:20:04,799
in the universe well that scene did it

481
00:20:09,510 --> 00:20:06,400
for me i mean i was enjoying the show

482
00:20:12,150 --> 00:20:09,520
but just that brief moment of of the

483
00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:12,160
depth yeah by the way even if you didn't

484
00:20:15,190 --> 00:20:13,200
notice

485
00:20:18,150 --> 00:20:15,200
that the clouds were in motion

486
00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:18,160
you're consciously your brain would have

487
00:20:20,470 --> 00:20:19,600
and because if it's a if they're not

488
00:20:22,870 --> 00:20:20,480
moving

489
00:20:25,750 --> 00:20:22,880
you know intuitively just by life

490
00:20:28,070 --> 00:20:25,760
experience that it must be just a static

491
00:20:30,870 --> 00:20:28,080
photo in the backdrop and we're just

492
00:20:33,510 --> 00:20:30,880
trying to juxtapose it and fool you

493
00:20:36,149 --> 00:20:33,520
it's the tiniest little movement your

494
00:20:40,390 --> 00:20:36,159
brain recognizes that it's not just a

495
00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:40,400
faked photo juxtaposition that it's real

496
00:20:43,350 --> 00:20:42,080
and you were really there i'm sure you

497
00:20:45,029 --> 00:20:43,360
were really there and you were really

498
00:20:46,830 --> 00:20:45,039
you actually you did the rest of the

499
00:20:50,149 --> 00:20:46,840
heavy lifting

500
00:20:51,510 --> 00:20:50,159
persuading us the viewer everyone yeah i

501
00:20:52,870 --> 00:20:51,520
keep having to ask bill pope the

502
00:20:54,470 --> 00:20:52,880
director of talking okay where's the

503
00:20:56,310 --> 00:20:54,480
spot right now

504
00:20:58,070 --> 00:20:56,320
this way they put a little x on the

505
00:20:59,909 --> 00:20:58,080
green screen okay right that's the spot

506
00:21:02,149 --> 00:20:59,919
let me go there right that don't that

507
00:21:04,390 --> 00:21:02,159
must actors know that well yeah i know i

508
00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:04,400
was very new to this yeah yeah

509
00:21:08,789 --> 00:21:06,240
a couple of the other things that

510
00:21:10,630 --> 00:21:08,799
i really i really stood out for me in

511
00:21:12,070 --> 00:21:10,640
the new uh episode because i am very

512
00:21:13,590 --> 00:21:12,080
familiar with the

513
00:21:15,270 --> 00:21:13,600
the the original series of course

514
00:21:17,669 --> 00:21:15,280
clearly you are um

515
00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:17,679
was the the new uh bits and pieces that

516
00:21:21,830 --> 00:21:19,600
we being dropped in like the rogue

517
00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:21,840
planets i found completely fascinating

518
00:21:26,149 --> 00:21:24,400
and that's a bit of new science i mean

519
00:21:28,630 --> 00:21:26,159
the idea of rogue planets

520
00:21:31,350 --> 00:21:28,640
uh uh let me when did that begin in mid

521
00:21:33,110 --> 00:21:31,360
80s i would say there was a

522
00:21:35,990 --> 00:21:33,120
an attempt to

523
00:21:37,029 --> 00:21:36,000
create a solar system from scratch okay

524
00:21:39,029 --> 00:21:37,039
and

525
00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:39,039
when you do that everyone said it

526
00:21:43,190 --> 00:21:40,400
probably would look like our solar

527
00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:43,200
system because why would we be unusual

528
00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:44,400
in this exercise

529
00:21:48,230 --> 00:21:47,200
yeah then we start discovering but sorry

530
00:21:49,909 --> 00:21:48,240
this

531
00:21:52,230 --> 00:21:49,919
in the 80s we're making other solar

532
00:21:54,390 --> 00:21:52,240
systems other stars that look like ours

533
00:21:56,789 --> 00:21:54,400
in the 1990s

534
00:21:58,870 --> 00:21:56,799
we start discovering other star systems

535
00:22:00,470 --> 00:21:58,880
because exoplanets were found and we

536
00:22:02,789 --> 00:22:00,480
found out that they're jupiter-sized

537
00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:02,799
planets orbiting really close to the

538
00:22:06,230 --> 00:22:04,080
host stars

539
00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:06,240
who ordered that that never came out of

540
00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:09,120
anything and then so they revisited the

541
00:22:13,110 --> 00:22:10,799
models the computer models of this and

542
00:22:15,350 --> 00:22:13,120
realized that there's episodes of planet

543
00:22:17,110 --> 00:22:15,360
migration that go on at the beginning of

544
00:22:19,830 --> 00:22:17,120
the formation of a solar system and that

545
00:22:22,549 --> 00:22:19,840
the largest planet can end up migrating

546
00:22:25,190 --> 00:22:22,559
inward at the cost of flinging other

547
00:22:28,789 --> 00:22:25,200
planets out of the solar system and in

548
00:22:31,270 --> 00:22:28,799
fact solar system star systems may be

549
00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:31,280
created with twice as many planets as

550
00:22:36,230 --> 00:22:33,520
are ultimately stable

551
00:22:38,310 --> 00:22:36,240
in their mature lives and so we have

552
00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:38,320
eight planets now we might have had 20.

553
00:22:42,789 --> 00:22:39,840
at the beginning where are they they are

554
00:22:44,470 --> 00:22:42,799
cast adrift wow the rogue planet rogue

555
00:22:46,630 --> 00:22:44,480
planet it's so romantic it's like the

556
00:22:47,590 --> 00:22:46,640
flying dutchman you know their idea oh

557
00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:47,600
my gosh

558
00:22:52,390 --> 00:22:49,760
great and a great analogy a world

559
00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:52,400
without a star is is really like a ship

560
00:22:56,789 --> 00:22:54,159
without a crew or a captain it's

561
00:22:58,950 --> 00:22:56,799
perpetual night time right yeah and it

562
00:23:00,710 --> 00:22:58,960
would have to be large enough

563
00:23:02,710 --> 00:23:00,720
of course we picked a rogue star that

564
00:23:04,149 --> 00:23:02,720
would be interesting to visit i mean a

565
00:23:06,070 --> 00:23:04,159
rogue planet that would be interesting

566
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:06,080
to visit for

567
00:23:10,549 --> 00:23:09,120
for the rogue planet that we selected

568
00:23:13,110 --> 00:23:10,559
it has to be large enough to have

569
00:23:15,029 --> 00:23:13,120
retained its heat of formation

570
00:23:16,149 --> 00:23:15,039
so that you could have still sort of

571
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:16,159
liquid

572
00:23:18,789 --> 00:23:17,039
um

573
00:23:20,310 --> 00:23:18,799
it could in a way be in its own

574
00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:20,320
goldilocks zone

575
00:23:23,990 --> 00:23:21,200
where

576
00:23:26,310 --> 00:23:24,000
the heat retained from its formation can

577
00:23:29,590 --> 00:23:26,320
melt whatever is frozen there because

578
00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:29,600
it's not near any local star wow and so

579
00:23:33,029 --> 00:23:31,200
it would otherwise be completely frozen

580
00:23:34,149 --> 00:23:33,039
work not for this retained heat it's the

581
00:23:36,070 --> 00:23:34,159
same heat in earth that makes the

582
00:23:37,990 --> 00:23:36,080
volcanoes and the plate tectonics yeah

583
00:23:40,630 --> 00:23:38,000
that none of that's traceable to the sun

584
00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:40,640
so imagine an earth cast adrift and

585
00:23:44,390 --> 00:23:42,400
which jupiter could do at the snap of a

586
00:23:46,149 --> 00:23:44,400
finger if jupiter started moving inward

587
00:23:47,830 --> 00:23:46,159
in the solar system earth would still

588
00:23:49,510 --> 00:23:47,840
have all this heat earth would have

589
00:23:52,390 --> 00:23:49,520
volcanoes and plate tectonics and all

590
00:23:53,669 --> 00:23:52,400
the rest of this and so we chose a large

591
00:23:55,190 --> 00:23:53,679
enough planet

592
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:55,200
so that you can then have this

593
00:23:58,070 --> 00:23:56,720
interesting things to talk about there'd

594
00:24:00,149 --> 00:23:58,080
be smaller ones that would just be

595
00:24:01,510 --> 00:24:00,159
completely frozen over and be less

596
00:24:05,669 --> 00:24:01,520
interesting than the one we picked if

597
00:24:08,230 --> 00:24:07,110
yeah yes

598
00:24:09,590 --> 00:24:08,240
exactly

599
00:24:12,310 --> 00:24:09,600
and um

600
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:12,320
the idea you know the rogue planet was a

601
00:24:16,630 --> 00:24:14,000
a twofer for us

602
00:24:18,549 --> 00:24:16,640
because it was also an ability to

603
00:24:20,549 --> 00:24:18,559
introduce the idea of seeing in

604
00:24:21,430 --> 00:24:20,559
different kinds of light

605
00:24:23,269 --> 00:24:21,440
and

606
00:24:25,269 --> 00:24:23,279
that's another theme that was good i

607
00:24:27,190 --> 00:24:25,279
understand of course most of these

608
00:24:28,230 --> 00:24:27,200
episodes yeah and i might say with great

609
00:24:29,750 --> 00:24:28,240
pride

610
00:24:32,230 --> 00:24:29,760
i do believe

611
00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:32,240
that in the original series uh steve

612
00:24:36,310 --> 00:24:34,720
soder carl sagan and i wrote

613
00:24:38,950 --> 00:24:36,320
that um

614
00:24:41,029 --> 00:24:38,960
this is before the very first exoplanet

615
00:24:43,669 --> 00:24:41,039
had ever been discovered

616
00:24:45,110 --> 00:24:43,679
that the planets likely outnumber the

617
00:24:46,710 --> 00:24:45,120
stars

618
00:24:48,310 --> 00:24:46,720
and um

619
00:24:49,990 --> 00:24:48,320
and that was going out on a limb and a

620
00:24:51,669 --> 00:24:50,000
lot of people said oh carl's sake it's

621
00:24:53,510 --> 00:24:51,679
so speculative

622
00:24:56,149 --> 00:24:53,520
but um

623
00:24:58,789 --> 00:24:56,159
that in global warming was

624
00:25:02,390 --> 00:24:58,799
another theme in the 1980 in the

625
00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:02,400
original series produced mostly in 1979

626
00:25:05,830 --> 00:25:03,679
that i think

627
00:25:08,230 --> 00:25:05,840
has held up so well

628
00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:08,240
my favorite line uh i've

629
00:25:10,710 --> 00:25:09,760
heard carl utter

630
00:25:13,350 --> 00:25:10,720
is that

631
00:25:16,230 --> 00:25:13,360
air molecules don't carry passports

632
00:25:18,390 --> 00:25:16,240
so they will go wherever the breezes

633
00:25:19,909 --> 00:25:18,400
take them and they're not if you pollute

634
00:25:21,750 --> 00:25:19,919
your air over your country you're

635
00:25:23,190 --> 00:25:21,760
polluting everybody's heir

636
00:25:24,950 --> 00:25:23,200
absolutely

637
00:25:27,190 --> 00:25:24,960
that's a very good point look i'll i'll

638
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:27,200
round off by saying that uh i thoroughly

639
00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:29,120
enjoyed the

640
00:25:32,310 --> 00:25:30,880
first episode i've been very lucky

641
00:25:34,789 --> 00:25:32,320
really happy to hear that preview of

642
00:25:37,029 --> 00:25:34,799
that very nice

643
00:25:38,549 --> 00:25:37,039
not exactly a tribute to carl sagan i

644
00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:38,559
don't want to go that far in the first

645
00:25:42,149 --> 00:25:40,320
episode but an acknowledgement an

646
00:25:43,750 --> 00:25:42,159
important acknowledgement to carl sagan

647
00:25:46,470 --> 00:25:43,760
in the first episode which i thought was

648
00:25:49,110 --> 00:25:46,480
very well done because it could have

649
00:25:51,110 --> 00:25:49,120
gone too far right and then

650
00:25:53,029 --> 00:25:51,120
that wasn't the point but it's there and

651
00:25:55,029 --> 00:25:53,039
it's powerful uh

652
00:25:57,029 --> 00:25:55,039
i think that i think the goal

653
00:25:58,870 --> 00:25:57,039
was twofold it was

654
00:26:01,269 --> 00:25:58,880
in case you never knew who carl sagan

655
00:26:02,470 --> 00:26:01,279
was this in this very short of course

656
00:26:04,230 --> 00:26:02,480
montage

657
00:26:06,710 --> 00:26:04,240
uh we capture that

658
00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:06,720
but also

659
00:26:12,390 --> 00:26:10,320
why am i hosting

660
00:26:16,149 --> 00:26:12,400
is there any because you are absolutely

661
00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:16,159
without equal the best person on earth

662
00:26:20,310 --> 00:26:17,840
that's not working

663
00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:20,320
uh so the other guy wasn't available

664
00:26:32,789 --> 00:26:22,799
right now

665
00:26:36,789 --> 00:26:33,990
the point is

666
00:26:38,549 --> 00:26:36,799
there's a there's this sort of

667
00:26:40,789 --> 00:26:38,559
baton pass

668
00:26:41,830 --> 00:26:40,799
you get the sentence that or a torch

669
00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:41,840
passing

670
00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:44,240
that allows the viewer

671
00:26:49,510 --> 00:26:46,960
to recognize the content continuity of

672
00:26:50,870 --> 00:26:49,520
this exercise and

673
00:26:52,549 --> 00:26:50,880
and that there's an aspect of that

674
00:26:55,269 --> 00:26:52,559
that's manifest in the script

675
00:26:57,510 --> 00:26:55,279
where science is a is a never-ending

676
00:26:59,669 --> 00:26:57,520
yeah i i noticed that too yeah

677
00:27:00,789 --> 00:26:59,679
generational generation yeah i mean one

678
00:27:03,669 --> 00:27:00,799
of the things

679
00:27:05,590 --> 00:27:03,679
that uh i set out to accomplish and when

680
00:27:07,430 --> 00:27:05,600
we started writing i started writing

681
00:27:09,510 --> 00:27:07,440
these first drafts with steve soder who

682
00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:09,520
was our original co-writer on

683
00:27:12,390 --> 00:27:11,520
on the original cosmos series

684
00:27:13,510 --> 00:27:12,400
was

685
00:27:14,630 --> 00:27:13,520
to

686
00:27:16,070 --> 00:27:14,640
present

687
00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:16,080
to the world

688
00:27:21,750 --> 00:27:17,200
um

689
00:27:24,070 --> 00:27:21,760
a vision of the scientific enterprise as

690
00:27:26,149 --> 00:27:24,080
instead of you know it's the crazy guy

691
00:27:29,269 --> 00:27:26,159
who's going to kill us all who

692
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:29,279
is the narcissistic dr faustus dr

693
00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:30,960
frankenstein

694
00:27:34,630 --> 00:27:32,880
you know who you know that that crazy

695
00:27:36,390 --> 00:27:34,640
scientist that's at the heart of so many

696
00:27:37,990 --> 00:27:36,400
blockbuster movies

697
00:27:40,310 --> 00:27:38,000
who's a threat to everything and doesn't

698
00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:40,320
have a human relationship with anyone

699
00:27:45,350 --> 00:27:43,120
what we what we wanted to do was to show

700
00:27:48,549 --> 00:27:45,360
this community of minds and the

701
00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:48,559
mentoring that goes on and the fact that

702
00:27:53,029 --> 00:27:51,520
it's never for any one generation to see

703
00:27:54,789 --> 00:27:53,039
the whole picture

704
00:27:56,470 --> 00:27:54,799
but it has to be you know

705
00:27:57,830 --> 00:27:56,480
if you if you're

706
00:27:59,190 --> 00:27:57,840
you know let's say you're a religious

707
00:28:01,590 --> 00:27:59,200
person

708
00:28:02,630 --> 00:28:01,600
chances are the doctrines that you are

709
00:28:04,630 --> 00:28:02,640
promoting

710
00:28:06,789 --> 00:28:04,640
have not changed very much for a couple

711
00:28:09,029 --> 00:28:06,799
of thousand years in

712
00:28:11,029 --> 00:28:09,039
despite what how the world has changed

713
00:28:12,950 --> 00:28:11,039
but if you're a scientist you have to be

714
00:28:14,630 --> 00:28:12,960
comfortable with change and you have to

715
00:28:17,590 --> 00:28:14,640
be willing to be wrong and you have to

716
00:28:19,750 --> 00:28:17,600
be willing to hand that baton off to the

717
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:19,760
next generation because they are likely

718
00:28:23,029 --> 00:28:22,000
to see a little more clearly than you

719
00:28:24,549 --> 00:28:23,039
have seen

720
00:28:26,470 --> 00:28:24,559
and the relationship

721
00:28:28,789 --> 00:28:26,480
uh between

722
00:28:31,110 --> 00:28:28,799
you know carl and the very young neil

723
00:28:33,190 --> 00:28:31,120
degrasse tyson which was we don't want

724
00:28:35,190 --> 00:28:33,200
to overstate it it wasn't like they were

725
00:28:36,470 --> 00:28:35,200
best pals or anything like that you're

726
00:28:38,549 --> 00:28:36,480
drinking buddies

727
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:38,559
no but that reaching out

728
00:28:43,830 --> 00:28:40,960
of the world famous scientists

729
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:43,840
to the young man who would become world

730
00:28:48,149 --> 00:28:45,840
famous yeah yeah uh

731
00:28:49,750 --> 00:28:48,159
that's what's so beautiful is that or

732
00:28:52,549 --> 00:28:49,760
even famous in the same way that was

733
00:28:54,070 --> 00:28:52,559
kind of weird yeah i mean interestingly

734
00:28:55,510 --> 00:28:54,080
there are a lot of ways to become famous

735
00:28:57,430 --> 00:28:55,520
but yes but

736
00:28:59,669 --> 00:28:57,440
uh i

737
00:29:01,029 --> 00:28:59,679
what i learned from carl from seeing

738
00:29:03,830 --> 00:29:01,039
cosmos because i was already in graduate

739
00:29:06,549 --> 00:29:03,840
school at the time so the carl was not a

740
00:29:09,590 --> 00:29:06,559
force that got me into science carl for

741
00:29:11,190 --> 00:29:09,600
me was a force that demonstrated that

742
00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:11,200
it's possible to bring science to the

743
00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:14,240
public in a way where people feel like

744
00:29:17,430 --> 00:29:15,760
you're just in the living room with them

745
00:29:19,510 --> 00:29:17,440
and you just it's a fireside

746
00:29:21,590 --> 00:29:19,520
conversation about the universe you

747
00:29:25,029 --> 00:29:21,600
don't have to pontificate there's not a

748
00:29:26,630 --> 00:29:25,039
lecture it's not a it is it is let's sit

749
00:29:28,950 --> 00:29:26,640
down and let's just

750
00:29:32,630 --> 00:29:28,960
talk about the universe and to realize

751
00:29:33,830 --> 00:29:32,640
how successful that can be as a means of

752
00:29:35,909 --> 00:29:33,840
communicating

753
00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:35,919
uh told me that if i'm ever one day a

754
00:29:40,950 --> 00:29:38,000
communicator that's that's how i'm gonna

755
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:40,960
do it because otherwise no one wants to

756
00:29:45,510 --> 00:29:43,200
be lectured to no one wants to be

757
00:29:47,510 --> 00:29:45,520
preached to you know you

758
00:29:50,230 --> 00:29:47,520
you people want to

759
00:29:52,870 --> 00:29:50,240
people want to feel like

760
00:29:55,110 --> 00:29:52,880
they're sort of an equal partner in the

761
00:29:57,029 --> 00:29:55,120
delivery of the information

762
00:29:58,230 --> 00:29:57,039
and the wisdom and the knowledge and the

763
00:30:00,230 --> 00:29:58,240
perspective

764
00:30:01,510 --> 00:30:00,240
it's a sense of wonder in the early

765
00:30:03,590 --> 00:30:01,520
1980s

766
00:30:05,909 --> 00:30:03,600
i was lucky enough to go on a wonderful

767
00:30:07,669 --> 00:30:05,919
trip with carl sagan through the cosmos

768
00:30:09,990 --> 00:30:07,679
in his spaceship of the imagination and

769
00:30:11,590 --> 00:30:10,000
now all these years later i can get my

770
00:30:13,510 --> 00:30:11,600
passport ready and jump on with neil

771
00:30:15,269 --> 00:30:13,520
degrasse tyson and continue that sense

772
00:30:16,950 --> 00:30:15,279
of wonder well then you understand

773
00:30:18,070 --> 00:30:16,960
exactly how i feel

774
00:30:20,230 --> 00:30:18,080
and by the way

775
00:30:21,990 --> 00:30:20,240
it doesn't require passport

776
00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:22,000
yes that's a very that's another nice

777
00:30:26,470 --> 00:30:24,480
thing no passport needed all you need is

778
00:30:27,269 --> 00:30:26,480
a beating heart and you're welcome on

779
00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:27,279
board

780
00:30:33,190 --> 00:30:28,720
the ship of the imagination we'll take

781
00:30:38,070 --> 00:30:35,350
and on that note i want to uh sincerely

782
00:30:40,630 --> 00:30:38,080
thank neil degrasse tyson for continuing

783
00:30:43,750 --> 00:30:40,640
this wonderful voyage and

784
00:30:46,470 --> 00:30:43,760
very sincerely thank you andrean for um

785
00:30:54,870 --> 00:30:46,480
kicking off this wonderful voyage with

786
00:31:09,350 --> 00:30:56,230
now

787
00:31:09,360 --> 00:32:00,389
oh

788
00:32:04,149 --> 00:32:02,070
hey this is jay novella from the

789
00:32:05,669 --> 00:32:04,159
skeptic's guide to the universe podcast

790
00:32:07,509 --> 00:32:05,679
did you know that there are thousands of

791
00:32:09,990 --> 00:32:07,519
skeptical reports interviews and

792
00:32:14,870 --> 00:32:10,000
investigations going back to 1981 free

793
00:32:18,549 --> 00:32:16,549
click the publications link and enjoy

794
00:32:20,630 --> 00:32:18,559
almost every back issue of the skeptic

795
00:32:22,389 --> 00:32:20,640
the journal from australian skeptics you

796
00:32:24,549 --> 00:32:22,399
can also subscribe online and get the

797
00:32:26,710 --> 00:32:24,559
latest digital or hard copy of this the

798
00:32:28,909 --> 00:32:26,720
world's second oldest skeptical magazine

799
00:32:30,789 --> 00:32:28,919
that's

800
00:32:40,070 --> 00:32:30,799
www.skeptics.com.edu or just google

801
00:32:44,230 --> 00:32:42,470
welcome to a week in science from ri oz

802
00:32:45,029 --> 00:32:44,240
bringing you the science you need to

803
00:32:47,509 --> 00:32:45,039
know

804
00:32:49,830 --> 00:32:47,519
it was one small step for an animal one

805
00:32:52,070 --> 00:32:49,840
giant leap for the animal kingdom but

806
00:32:54,230 --> 00:32:52,080
just how did the first vertebrates walk

807
00:32:56,789 --> 00:32:54,240
onto land and breathe air for the first

808
00:33:02,549 --> 00:32:56,799
time it's time to take a closer look at

809
00:33:07,269 --> 00:33:05,029
two recent papers reveal key insights

810
00:33:09,669 --> 00:33:07,279
into how the first vertebrates walked

811
00:33:11,669 --> 00:33:09,679
onto land and took their first breath

812
00:33:14,549 --> 00:33:11,679
the mechanism that determines whether

813
00:33:16,630 --> 00:33:14,559
you have fish fins or walking limbs is

814
00:33:18,630 --> 00:33:16,640
the rate at which a couple of hox genes

815
00:33:21,190 --> 00:33:18,640
are expressed hox genes are like

816
00:33:23,990 --> 00:33:21,200
orchestra conductors they regulate how a

817
00:33:26,070 --> 00:33:24,000
whole suite of other genes perform and

818
00:33:28,870 --> 00:33:26,080
changing its rate of expression can

819
00:33:30,630 --> 00:33:28,880
radically alter how an organism develops

820
00:33:32,950 --> 00:33:30,640
we learnt more about limb building when

821
00:33:36,149 --> 00:33:32,960
developmental embryologists switch the

822
00:33:38,389 --> 00:33:36,159
hox genes from a fish to a mouse

823
00:33:40,950 --> 00:33:38,399
the fish hox gene could not produce

824
00:33:42,870 --> 00:33:40,960
fingers and toes in mice thus the

825
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:42,880
genetic apparatus required to make

826
00:33:48,870 --> 00:33:45,600
fingers and toes must have evolved after

827
00:33:53,430 --> 00:33:51,350
and we also now know how breathing

828
00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:53,440
developed for the first time and guess

829
00:33:57,909 --> 00:33:55,440
what we almost ended up breathing

830
00:34:00,149 --> 00:33:57,919
through our ears a team studied live

831
00:34:02,389 --> 00:34:00,159
polyterrain fish from africa

832
00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:02,399
these fish have a simple lung but no

833
00:34:08,149 --> 00:34:06,000
windpipe the team found that 93 of the

834
00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:08,159
air getting into the lung came through

835
00:34:13,349 --> 00:34:10,320
holes in the tops of the head called

836
00:34:15,430 --> 00:34:13,359
spiracles being surrounded by bone these

837
00:34:17,750 --> 00:34:15,440
structures are usually found in fossils

838
00:34:21,190 --> 00:34:17,760
of advanced fish and primitive walking

839
00:34:23,109 --> 00:34:21,200
vertebrates the tetrapods so now we can

840
00:34:25,589 --> 00:34:23,119
track how this early breathing mechanism

841
00:34:28,310 --> 00:34:25,599
developed in more advanced tetrapods

842
00:34:31,909 --> 00:34:28,320
like us the sphericals ended up becoming

843
00:34:34,869 --> 00:34:31,919
our ears and now four fast facts about

844
00:34:36,389 --> 00:34:34,879
walking on land

845
00:34:39,109 --> 00:34:36,399
while the standard body plan for

846
00:34:40,869 --> 00:34:39,119
tetrapods includes five fingers and toes

847
00:34:42,790 --> 00:34:40,879
at the ends of each limb

848
00:34:45,349 --> 00:34:42,800
some of the earliest land walkers had

849
00:34:47,349 --> 00:34:45,359
eight digits in recent years several

850
00:34:50,230 --> 00:34:47,359
fossil finds have completed the picture

851
00:34:52,869 --> 00:34:50,240
of every conceivable intermediate stage

852
00:34:54,790 --> 00:34:52,879
between advanced fish and the first land

853
00:34:57,109 --> 00:34:54,800
walking vertebrates the queensland

854
00:34:59,430 --> 00:34:57,119
lungfish while not an immediate ancestor

855
00:35:01,270 --> 00:34:59,440
to land walking vertebrates provides a

856
00:35:03,990 --> 00:35:01,280
clear picture of how air breathing

857
00:35:06,710 --> 00:35:04,000
evolved in fish before they walked onto

858
00:35:08,230 --> 00:35:06,720
the land and in case you're wondering

859
00:35:10,470 --> 00:35:08,240
queensland lungfish are supposed to

860
00:35:13,030 --> 00:35:10,480
taste like a very oily salmon and

861
00:35:14,630 --> 00:35:13,040
they're covered in a thick sticky mucus

862
00:35:16,950 --> 00:35:14,640
i know that because i had to throw my

863
00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:16,960
shirt away after handling one of them

864
00:35:21,270 --> 00:35:19,200
that's it for this week in science for

865
00:35:25,670 --> 00:35:21,280
more information on walking on land go

866
00:35:31,270 --> 00:35:29,030
follow us on twitter at rios and like us

867
00:35:39,109 --> 00:35:31,280
on facebook i'm paul willis and we'll

868
00:35:39,119 --> 00:35:46,710
in a world where the truth is

869
00:35:54,710 --> 00:35:49,510
where messages are received from beyond

870
00:36:00,470 --> 00:35:55,990
and reason

871
00:36:06,710 --> 00:36:03,670
only three men stand between the truth

872
00:36:09,109 --> 00:36:06,720
and a post-modernist abyss

873
00:36:10,630 --> 00:36:09,119
what date is it seven eighth seventh

874
00:36:12,069 --> 00:36:10,640
eighth this is impressive it's these

875
00:36:15,030 --> 00:36:12,079
artists impressions they're not they're

876
00:36:16,710 --> 00:36:15,040
photographs of chinese lanterns

877
00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:16,720
we are not well researched yeah because

878
00:36:20,150 --> 00:36:18,240
good god we're full we don't discuss

879
00:36:22,870 --> 00:36:20,160
cryptozoology on the show very often

880
00:36:24,710 --> 00:36:22,880
because we don't know anything about it

881
00:36:26,310 --> 00:36:24,720
the price gets lower and lower and lower

882
00:36:30,069 --> 00:36:26,320
and then he hits the ceiling it's a

883
00:36:34,630 --> 00:36:31,670
skeptics with a k for the mercedes

884
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:34,640
getting society finders on itunes or you

885
00:36:47,109 --> 00:36:42,710
now it's time for dr raichi reports with

886
00:36:50,790 --> 00:36:48,790
hello listeners and welcome to dr

887
00:36:53,670 --> 00:36:50,800
ritchie reports well this week i'm

888
00:36:56,069 --> 00:36:53,680
talking to dr ken harvey who famously

889
00:36:58,069 --> 00:36:56,079
recently quit his position as an adjunct

890
00:37:00,790 --> 00:36:58,079
professor at a university here in

891
00:37:03,270 --> 00:37:00,800
australia this was a direct result of

892
00:37:04,550 --> 00:37:03,280
latrobe universities getting on board

893
00:37:06,950 --> 00:37:04,560
with swiss

894
00:37:09,030 --> 00:37:06,960
a vitamin and supplement company who

895
00:37:10,790 --> 00:37:09,040
wants the university to demonstrate that

896
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:10,800
their products work

897
00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:12,560
so just a little bit of background i'm

898
00:37:16,470 --> 00:37:14,880
dr ken harvey was an adjunct senior

899
00:37:18,470 --> 00:37:16,480
lecturer in the school of public health

900
00:37:21,510 --> 00:37:18,480
at la trobe university where he has

901
00:37:24,150 --> 00:37:21,520
worked for the last 20 years but to most

902
00:37:26,870 --> 00:37:24,160
australians he's most well known for his

903
00:37:28,630 --> 00:37:26,880
regular campaigning against what he sees

904
00:37:30,069 --> 00:37:28,640
as the shortfalls in australia's

905
00:37:31,430 --> 00:37:30,079
legislation

906
00:37:33,190 --> 00:37:31,440
surrounding alternative and

907
00:37:35,270 --> 00:37:33,200
complementary medicine

908
00:37:37,270 --> 00:37:35,280
dr harvey devotes a lot of his time

909
00:37:39,910 --> 00:37:37,280
speaking to local skeptical groups but

910
00:37:41,190 --> 00:37:39,920
also to the media on these issues and

911
00:37:43,990 --> 00:37:41,200
trying to

912
00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:44,000
reveal how it is legislation in

913
00:37:48,950 --> 00:37:45,920
australia that is the big problem in

914
00:37:51,190 --> 00:37:48,960
terms of regulating alternative medicine

915
00:37:53,510 --> 00:37:51,200
he's a frequent figure on tv radio and

916
00:37:56,069 --> 00:37:53,520
in print media discussing the health

917
00:37:57,990 --> 00:37:56,079
legal financial and regulatory dynamics

918
00:38:01,510 --> 00:37:58,000
peculiar to australia's apparent

919
00:38:02,950 --> 00:38:01,520
obsession with unproven and untested cam

920
00:38:05,109 --> 00:38:02,960
therapies

921
00:38:07,270 --> 00:38:05,119
and today i was very lucky to get some

922
00:38:09,589 --> 00:38:07,280
time from dr ken harvey on the line from

923
00:38:11,190 --> 00:38:09,599
skype in melbourne so welcome to the

924
00:38:12,870 --> 00:38:11,200
skeptic zone ken harvey and thank you

925
00:38:14,710 --> 00:38:12,880
for taking the time to talk to us i know

926
00:38:16,630 --> 00:38:14,720
you're very busy

927
00:38:18,950 --> 00:38:16,640
it's good to be here reggie

928
00:38:21,190 --> 00:38:18,960
so can you fill our listeners in briefly

929
00:38:22,710 --> 00:38:21,200
on what is going on and how you came to

930
00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:22,720
resign your position recently from

931
00:38:28,470 --> 00:38:25,440
latrobe university

932
00:38:30,870 --> 00:38:28,480
yes well uh swiss wellness and i love

933
00:38:33,270 --> 00:38:30,880
that name wellness um

934
00:38:35,589 --> 00:38:33,280
actually offered latrobe 15 million

935
00:38:37,750 --> 00:38:35,599
dollars over six years if they would

936
00:38:40,790 --> 00:38:37,760
scientifically examine the quality and

937
00:38:42,630 --> 00:38:40,800
the efficacy of their products

938
00:38:45,030 --> 00:38:42,640
and indeed the vice chancellor of

939
00:38:47,270 --> 00:38:45,040
research sort of said

940
00:38:49,270 --> 00:38:47,280
swiss products will continue to undergo

941
00:38:50,390 --> 00:38:49,280
rigorous and independent scientific

942
00:38:53,030 --> 00:38:50,400
assessment

943
00:38:56,069 --> 00:38:53,040
and that's rather amusing because

944
00:38:58,150 --> 00:38:56,079
swiss is well known to have had

945
00:38:59,990 --> 00:38:58,160
many of its products or many claims for

946
00:39:02,470 --> 00:39:00,000
its products breach the australian

947
00:39:04,630 --> 00:39:02,480
therapeutic goods advertising code uh

948
00:39:06,230 --> 00:39:04,640
indeed i've submitted some of those

949
00:39:09,030 --> 00:39:06,240
complaints myself

950
00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:09,040
uh for example a recent 71-page

951
00:39:14,790 --> 00:39:12,160
judgement um last year on 20 television

952
00:39:16,550 --> 00:39:14,800
advertisements for a variety of products

953
00:39:18,630 --> 00:39:16,560
from swiss

954
00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:18,640
in which the products claimed they were

955
00:39:22,790 --> 00:39:21,280
proven clinically proven scientifically

956
00:39:26,550 --> 00:39:22,800
shown

957
00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:28,630
the independent review found that most

958
00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:31,680
of the studies swiss used were weak

959
00:39:35,109 --> 00:39:33,520
they were not representative of general

960
00:39:37,190 --> 00:39:35,119
population

961
00:39:39,190 --> 00:39:37,200
they didn't support the representations

962
00:39:41,910 --> 00:39:39,200
that the products were clinically proven

963
00:39:43,990 --> 00:39:41,920
to do a variety of things and so as i

964
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:44,000
say they were found to breach

965
00:39:47,670 --> 00:39:45,760
the therapeutic goods

966
00:39:48,630 --> 00:39:47,680
advertising code

967
00:39:51,430 --> 00:39:48,640
now

968
00:39:53,510 --> 00:39:51,440
interestingly um swiss swiss were

969
00:39:55,270 --> 00:39:53,520
requested to withdraw the advertisements

970
00:39:57,270 --> 00:39:55,280
uh the chief executive

971
00:39:59,990 --> 00:39:57,280
deemed a ruling ridiculous and he

972
00:40:01,990 --> 00:40:00,000
accused the panel of being unqualified

973
00:40:03,030 --> 00:40:02,000
and called for an immediate overhaul of

974
00:40:05,430 --> 00:40:03,040
the panel

975
00:40:06,390 --> 00:40:05,440
so that's pretty typical of this company

976
00:40:10,069 --> 00:40:06,400
i mean

977
00:40:12,150 --> 00:40:10,079
they have had a lot of complaints upheld

978
00:40:14,150 --> 00:40:12,160
they don't take them seriously the

979
00:40:16,950 --> 00:40:14,160
independent umpire seriously and they

980
00:40:19,190 --> 00:40:16,960
just keep on doing it so you can imagine

981
00:40:21,670 --> 00:40:19,200
my concern when

982
00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:21,680
the university wanted to get a

983
00:40:27,589 --> 00:40:25,040
partnership with this with this company

984
00:40:29,109 --> 00:40:27,599
in addition i mean it has transpired but

985
00:40:30,870 --> 00:40:29,119
a number of that approached a number of

986
00:40:33,750 --> 00:40:30,880
other universities who actually turned

987
00:40:34,870 --> 00:40:33,760
them down for a variety of good reasons

988
00:40:38,710 --> 00:40:34,880
um

989
00:40:40,470 --> 00:40:38,720
so again my concern was that if latrobe

990
00:40:42,710 --> 00:40:40,480
um indeed it was their chemistry

991
00:40:44,390 --> 00:40:42,720
department was going to provide the

992
00:40:47,589 --> 00:40:44,400
evaluations

993
00:40:49,190 --> 00:40:47,599
of swiss products that there was a would

994
00:40:51,430 --> 00:40:49,200
be a big pressure

995
00:40:53,910 --> 00:40:51,440
to actually find that these products

996
00:40:56,470 --> 00:40:53,920
work and we know that that's actually

997
00:40:58,950 --> 00:40:56,480
quite easy to do for example

998
00:41:01,190 --> 00:40:58,960
in one of the complaints that was upheld

999
00:41:03,270 --> 00:41:01,200
another university performed a battery

1000
00:41:04,950 --> 00:41:03,280
of 60 or more tests of mental

1001
00:41:07,109 --> 00:41:04,960
functioning

1002
00:41:09,470 --> 00:41:07,119
while looking at a swiss multivitamin

1003
00:41:12,710 --> 00:41:09,480
preparation uh they did use a

1004
00:41:15,109 --> 00:41:12,720
placebo-controlled uh trial uh but found

1005
00:41:17,670 --> 00:41:15,119
as you might imagine that running 60

1006
00:41:19,910 --> 00:41:17,680
tests they found about one or two

1007
00:41:22,150 --> 00:41:19,920
reach statistical significance which the

1008
00:41:24,870 --> 00:41:22,160
company made a big deal about

1009
00:41:27,510 --> 00:41:24,880
so in short i mean i think the company

1010
00:41:29,670 --> 00:41:27,520
is really wanting to use research in

1011
00:41:32,470 --> 00:41:29,680
university affiliation as a fig leaf of

1012
00:41:35,589 --> 00:41:32,480
respectability um i think it put

1013
00:41:37,430 --> 00:41:35,599
pressure on researchers to come up with

1014
00:41:39,349 --> 00:41:37,440
research designs that although they

1015
00:41:41,750 --> 00:41:39,359
might meet ethical approval and get

1016
00:41:43,589 --> 00:41:41,760
published in peer-reviewed journals

1017
00:41:45,829 --> 00:41:43,599
in fact are designed to produce a

1018
00:41:47,349 --> 00:41:45,839
positive result and we know that's a big

1019
00:41:49,349 --> 00:41:47,359
problem in research in the

1020
00:41:51,510 --> 00:41:49,359
pharmaceutical industry i mean we know

1021
00:41:54,069 --> 00:41:51,520
that industry sponsored research is much

1022
00:41:54,870 --> 00:41:54,079
more likely to produce positive outcomes

1023
00:41:56,710 --> 00:41:54,880
so

1024
00:41:58,150 --> 00:41:56,720
taking all of that into account how

1025
00:42:00,790 --> 00:41:58,160
could i remain

1026
00:42:03,430 --> 00:42:00,800
so i resigned but interestingly um it

1027
00:42:05,829 --> 00:42:03,440
has produced quite an interesting a lot

1028
00:42:07,430 --> 00:42:05,839
of publicity and debate about

1029
00:42:09,510 --> 00:42:07,440
universities and their relationships

1030
00:42:11,510 --> 00:42:09,520
with pharmaceutical companies given that

1031
00:42:13,270 --> 00:42:11,520
you are probably the most high profile

1032
00:42:14,790 --> 00:42:13,280
person in the country that does this

1033
00:42:16,710 --> 00:42:14,800
kind of stuff and you mentioned you

1034
00:42:19,190 --> 00:42:16,720
personally have reported some

1035
00:42:20,150 --> 00:42:19,200
advertisements of swiss to the tga were

1036
00:42:25,190 --> 00:42:20,160
you

1037
00:42:28,069 --> 00:42:25,200
out about it

1038
00:42:30,309 --> 00:42:28,079
well i read the press release which was

1039
00:42:31,750 --> 00:42:30,319
produced by the university and also by

1040
00:42:34,390 --> 00:42:31,760
swiss which are written very much like

1041
00:42:36,230 --> 00:42:34,400
an editorial for swiss actually

1042
00:42:37,910 --> 00:42:36,240
and that was the first i knew that a

1043
00:42:41,349 --> 00:42:37,920
memorandum of understanding had been

1044
00:42:44,309 --> 00:42:41,359
signed now yes i i had been

1045
00:42:46,870 --> 00:42:44,319
approached in may last year by the head

1046
00:42:49,829 --> 00:42:46,880
of the school of public health who sort

1047
00:42:51,349 --> 00:42:49,839
of said in an email look they understand

1048
00:42:53,030 --> 00:42:51,359
she understood that swiss was

1049
00:42:55,270 --> 00:42:53,040
approaching the university

1050
00:42:57,589 --> 00:42:55,280
uh with a possibility of doing research

1051
00:42:59,829 --> 00:42:57,599
and what did i think about it and i

1052
00:43:01,990 --> 00:42:59,839
wrote quite a long email which i pointed

1053
00:43:03,589 --> 00:43:02,000
out various things i pointed out that

1054
00:43:06,390 --> 00:43:03,599
this company did not have a good track

1055
00:43:09,589 --> 00:43:06,400
record that research specifically

1056
00:43:10,470 --> 00:43:09,599
designed to show their products work um

1057
00:43:12,790 --> 00:43:10,480
you know

1058
00:43:15,829 --> 00:43:12,800
ran a temptation of being gamed to

1059
00:43:17,589 --> 00:43:15,839
produce those results um and i did say

1060
00:43:19,030 --> 00:43:17,599
that you know there were better ways of

1061
00:43:20,790 --> 00:43:19,040
going about it

1062
00:43:22,950 --> 00:43:20,800
you know i'm not against i'm certainly a

1063
00:43:25,670 --> 00:43:22,960
supportive of research in complementary

1064
00:43:27,349 --> 00:43:25,680
medicine companies or for looking at

1065
00:43:29,910 --> 00:43:27,359
complementary medicines and i said that

1066
00:43:32,309 --> 00:43:29,920
i was supportive of it but my

1067
00:43:34,390 --> 00:43:32,319
idea was that if it was to be done

1068
00:43:37,670 --> 00:43:34,400
ideally it should be done with a number

1069
00:43:40,309 --> 00:43:37,680
of companies producing or offering money

1070
00:43:43,750 --> 00:43:40,319
for an independent center it shouldn't

1071
00:43:45,030 --> 00:43:43,760
be designed to test a company's products

1072
00:43:47,510 --> 00:43:45,040
and ideally

1073
00:43:49,270 --> 00:43:47,520
it would be set up through winners like

1074
00:43:50,710 --> 00:43:49,280
the australian research council which

1075
00:43:53,109 --> 00:43:50,720
does have

1076
00:43:54,390 --> 00:43:53,119
grants available to support industry

1077
00:43:56,710 --> 00:43:54,400
cooperation

1078
00:43:58,550 --> 00:43:56,720
they're called arc linkage grants you

1079
00:44:00,309 --> 00:43:58,560
put up good protocols you usually have a

1080
00:44:02,630 --> 00:44:00,319
couple of two or more of industry

1081
00:44:04,630 --> 00:44:02,640
sponsors sometimes several universities

1082
00:44:05,589 --> 00:44:04,640
it's all open and above board and if it

1083
00:44:08,390 --> 00:44:05,599
gets up

1084
00:44:10,950 --> 00:44:08,400
then in fact you also get uh arc

1085
00:44:13,349 --> 00:44:10,960
government money as well and that was

1086
00:44:15,990 --> 00:44:13,359
the sort of approach that i recommended

1087
00:44:17,109 --> 00:44:16,000
but i had no idea how much of that was

1088
00:44:19,349 --> 00:44:17,119
conveyed

1089
00:44:20,550 --> 00:44:19,359
to the university hierarchy i heard

1090
00:44:23,270 --> 00:44:20,560
nothing more

1091
00:44:26,230 --> 00:44:23,280
until as i say the press release was

1092
00:44:28,550 --> 00:44:26,240
announced um and again my feeling was

1093
00:44:30,069 --> 00:44:28,560
well okay particularly ironic because

1094
00:44:32,950 --> 00:44:30,079
the university website has actually

1095
00:44:35,030 --> 00:44:32,960
published some of my papers criticizing

1096
00:44:37,990 --> 00:44:35,040
swiss but i presume they hadn't bothered

1097
00:44:40,150 --> 00:44:38,000
to read them so again i resigned

1098
00:44:41,670 --> 00:44:40,160
so um what do you think the university

1099
00:44:44,069 --> 00:44:41,680
hopes to achieve from this is it just

1100
00:44:46,390 --> 00:44:44,079
about them obtaining this 15 million

1101
00:44:47,670 --> 00:44:46,400
worth of funding because i can't see how

1102
00:44:50,150 --> 00:44:47,680
this would be a benefit to them

1103
00:44:52,150 --> 00:44:50,160
obviously to swiss it gives them an air

1104
00:44:53,910 --> 00:44:52,160
of legitimacy having they could stamp la

1105
00:44:55,589 --> 00:44:53,920
trobe on their products but what's the

1106
00:44:57,430 --> 00:44:55,599
benefit from the uni beyond the 15

1107
00:44:59,430 --> 00:44:57,440
million dollars

1108
00:45:01,589 --> 00:44:59,440
well that's a benefit there's no doubt

1109
00:45:04,309 --> 00:45:01,599
about it i mean australian universities

1110
00:45:06,550 --> 00:45:04,319
have been slashed and burned by

1111
00:45:08,230 --> 00:45:06,560
successive governments um their money

1112
00:45:11,109 --> 00:45:08,240
has been cut back they're very much

1113
00:45:12,550 --> 00:45:11,119
dependent upon full fee paying students

1114
00:45:15,990 --> 00:45:12,560
particularly overseas students

1115
00:45:17,990 --> 00:45:16,000
regrettably and it has produced a lot of

1116
00:45:21,510 --> 00:45:18,000
pressures on staff and the

1117
00:45:22,630 --> 00:45:21,520
administration to get money um

1118
00:45:25,030 --> 00:45:22,640
and so

1119
00:45:27,190 --> 00:45:25,040
i do believe that uh the 15 million

1120
00:45:29,589 --> 00:45:27,200
dollars was very attractive i mean i

1121
00:45:31,910 --> 00:45:29,599
think to be fair i think the university

1122
00:45:33,670 --> 00:45:31,920
probably felt that they were setting up

1123
00:45:35,430 --> 00:45:33,680
a center for complementary medicine

1124
00:45:38,150 --> 00:45:35,440
research that would

1125
00:45:40,870 --> 00:45:38,160
do some good they certainly said they

1126
00:45:41,910 --> 00:45:40,880
thought it would be independent um but

1127
00:45:44,710 --> 00:45:41,920
again

1128
00:45:47,670 --> 00:45:44,720
the deal with one company um the deal

1129
00:45:50,950 --> 00:45:47,680
that was particularly uh everyone says

1130
00:45:53,829 --> 00:45:50,960
was to prove that swiss products work um

1131
00:45:55,910 --> 00:45:53,839
no no i i think it had a number of flaws

1132
00:45:57,030 --> 00:45:55,920
in it but clearly it's hard to get

1133
00:45:58,870 --> 00:45:57,040
between

1134
00:46:00,470 --> 00:45:58,880
a vice chancellor of the university and

1135
00:46:02,630 --> 00:46:00,480
15 million

1136
00:46:04,870 --> 00:46:02,640
yeah that's a good point

1137
00:46:07,030 --> 00:46:04,880
so you you did touch on before i mean i

1138
00:46:09,829 --> 00:46:07,040
have read quite a lot of the publicity

1139
00:46:10,870 --> 00:46:09,839
surrounding um your resignation and of

1140
00:46:12,630 --> 00:46:10,880
course there have been a lot of

1141
00:46:14,950 --> 00:46:12,640
criticisms of you and one of those has

1142
00:46:16,230 --> 00:46:14,960
been that well therefore you don't

1143
00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:16,240
support

1144
00:46:19,430 --> 00:46:18,079
research into complementary medicine at

1145
00:46:21,910 --> 00:46:19,440
all now you just touched on that by

1146
00:46:24,390 --> 00:46:21,920
talking about arc discovery grants but

1147
00:46:27,109 --> 00:46:24,400
can you extrapolate a little bit about

1148
00:46:29,109 --> 00:46:27,119
your opinions on research into cam you

1149
00:46:31,030 --> 00:46:29,119
do support it don't you

1150
00:46:34,069 --> 00:46:31,040
look of course i do i support

1151
00:46:36,470 --> 00:46:34,079
appropriate research and clearly there's

1152
00:46:39,109 --> 00:46:36,480
a number of areas where research is

1153
00:46:41,750 --> 00:46:39,119
valuable i mean a number of good western

1154
00:46:44,069 --> 00:46:41,760
medicines have come out of traditional

1155
00:46:46,069 --> 00:46:44,079
medicines um you know did you tell us

1156
00:46:49,510 --> 00:46:46,079
out of foxglove aspirin out of willow

1157
00:46:51,190 --> 00:46:49,520
black more recently uh artemisin for uh

1158
00:46:53,430 --> 00:46:51,200
resistant false power and malaria has

1159
00:46:56,069 --> 00:46:53,440
come out of traditional chinese medical

1160
00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:56,079
knowledge so clearly we need to be

1161
00:47:00,870 --> 00:46:59,040
researching traditions and we need to be

1162
00:47:02,870 --> 00:47:00,880
researching

1163
00:47:05,750 --> 00:47:02,880
indigenous medical

1164
00:47:08,630 --> 00:47:05,760
knowledge but again uh there's equally a

1165
00:47:10,790 --> 00:47:08,640
lot of unproven uh stuff in traditional

1166
00:47:13,270 --> 00:47:10,800
st traditional stuff homeopathy is a

1167
00:47:14,950 --> 00:47:13,280
classic example of that um a lot of

1168
00:47:16,950 --> 00:47:14,960
stuff that's been proven not to work

1169
00:47:18,870 --> 00:47:16,960
homeopathy again is i think the evidence

1170
00:47:21,670 --> 00:47:18,880
is well in that

1171
00:47:24,630 --> 00:47:21,680
it has no scientific validity so it

1172
00:47:26,390 --> 00:47:24,640
needs good research now equally well one

1173
00:47:29,750 --> 00:47:26,400
of the problems we have in a system in

1174
00:47:31,670 --> 00:47:29,760
australia is that it's actually costs a

1175
00:47:34,309 --> 00:47:31,680
lot of time and money to

1176
00:47:37,030 --> 00:47:34,319
register complementary medicines and get

1177
00:47:38,790 --> 00:47:37,040
them independently validated by the

1178
00:47:41,270 --> 00:47:38,800
therapeutic goods administration you've

1179
00:47:43,510 --> 00:47:41,280
got to do a lot of good trials as have

1180
00:47:44,790 --> 00:47:43,520
prescription pharmaceuticals so put up

1181
00:47:46,790 --> 00:47:44,800
good data

1182
00:47:48,870 --> 00:47:46,800
and the complementary medicine industry

1183
00:47:51,030 --> 00:47:48,880
has found it's just not worth the effort

1184
00:47:53,910 --> 00:47:51,040
they would much prefer to spend money on

1185
00:47:56,150 --> 00:47:53,920
hype um celebrities much better return

1186
00:47:57,829 --> 00:47:56,160
on investment having said that there are

1187
00:48:00,150 --> 00:47:57,839
a couple of companies that have done the

1188
00:48:01,990 --> 00:48:00,160
hard yards in australia and got their

1189
00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:02,000
products registered by the therapeutic

1190
00:48:05,990 --> 00:48:03,839
goods administration which means they

1191
00:48:08,390 --> 00:48:06,000
spent a lot of time and effort and money

1192
00:48:10,309 --> 00:48:08,400
on good clinical trials to show their

1193
00:48:12,069 --> 00:48:10,319
products work now they're the sort of

1194
00:48:13,910 --> 00:48:12,079
companies i certainly believe that

1195
00:48:15,990 --> 00:48:13,920
universities should be working with and

1196
00:48:17,190 --> 00:48:16,000
of course again as i've said before that

1197
00:48:20,790 --> 00:48:17,200
we should be

1198
00:48:23,349 --> 00:48:20,800
doing fundamental research on indigenous

1199
00:48:25,430 --> 00:48:23,359
medicines and herbal products to try to

1200
00:48:26,950 --> 00:48:25,440
extract active ingredients so you

1201
00:48:28,470 --> 00:48:26,960
mentioned before that it was the

1202
00:48:30,470 --> 00:48:28,480
chemistry department at la trobe that

1203
00:48:31,910 --> 00:48:30,480
was planning to do these studies

1204
00:48:33,510 --> 00:48:31,920
i presume that means they're not doing

1205
00:48:35,030 --> 00:48:33,520
clinical trials or would they be

1206
00:48:37,190 --> 00:48:35,040
coordinating

1207
00:48:38,710 --> 00:48:37,200
clinical trials or just doing say

1208
00:48:40,870 --> 00:48:38,720
analysis of the products do you know

1209
00:48:43,349 --> 00:48:40,880
what that would be involved

1210
00:48:44,870 --> 00:48:43,359
it hasn't been at all clear

1211
00:48:46,470 --> 00:48:44,880
and

1212
00:48:48,230 --> 00:48:46,480
indeed i mean certainly the chemistry

1213
00:48:49,829 --> 00:48:48,240
department has been involved in clinical

1214
00:48:52,549 --> 00:48:49,839
trials of

1215
00:48:55,589 --> 00:48:52,559
foods and food extracts so presumably

1216
00:48:56,950 --> 00:48:55,599
they have the capabilities um i think if

1217
00:48:59,589 --> 00:48:56,960
they were trying to prove that swiss

1218
00:49:01,670 --> 00:48:59,599
products work it would be double blind

1219
00:49:03,430 --> 00:49:01,680
controlled trials and i think as i say

1220
00:49:06,549 --> 00:49:03,440
the only way to do it would be to game

1221
00:49:08,230 --> 00:49:06,559
the trial design uh which you know has

1222
00:49:10,710 --> 00:49:08,240
been done as i mentioned by other

1223
00:49:12,549 --> 00:49:10,720
universities so again it's so touch

1224
00:49:15,349 --> 00:49:12,559
ironic i mean i and others have pointed

1225
00:49:16,870 --> 00:49:15,359
out that you know latrobe really

1226
00:49:19,589 --> 00:49:16,880
although it's got expertise in a number

1227
00:49:21,109 --> 00:49:19,599
of areas really hasn't got expertise in

1228
00:49:23,670 --> 00:49:21,119
complementary medicines and clinical

1229
00:49:25,190 --> 00:49:23,680
trials there are other universities like

1230
00:49:27,030 --> 00:49:25,200
the university of western sydney and

1231
00:49:27,990 --> 00:49:27,040
others that have got a much better track

1232
00:49:30,069 --> 00:49:28,000
record

1233
00:49:31,990 --> 00:49:30,079
and again as i pointed out it has turned

1234
00:49:33,910 --> 00:49:32,000
out that a number of other universities

1235
00:49:36,150 --> 00:49:33,920
some with better track records in this

1236
00:49:38,470 --> 00:49:36,160
area than latrobe were approached and

1237
00:49:40,870 --> 00:49:38,480
turned down the swiss offer so the other

1238
00:49:43,750 --> 00:49:40,880
thing that um you mentioned before um

1239
00:49:45,829 --> 00:49:43,760
about how um swiss responded to your

1240
00:49:47,430 --> 00:49:45,839
complaints and from the panel from the

1241
00:49:49,589 --> 00:49:47,440
tga i also believe that there's

1242
00:49:52,470 --> 00:49:49,599
currently um potentially a defamation

1243
00:49:54,069 --> 00:49:52,480
case going on um against the the guys

1244
00:49:56,309 --> 00:49:54,079
who do the checkout on the abc and

1245
00:49:58,230 --> 00:49:56,319
you've been a guest on that show and

1246
00:49:59,589 --> 00:49:58,240
that was a result of criticism of their

1247
00:50:02,309 --> 00:49:59,599
products on the checkout do you know

1248
00:50:04,390 --> 00:50:02,319
much about um that

1249
00:50:05,750 --> 00:50:04,400
the checkout is a consumer affairs uh

1250
00:50:08,470 --> 00:50:05,760
program run by the australian

1251
00:50:10,390 --> 00:50:08,480
broadcasting commission it's uh it's

1252
00:50:12,790 --> 00:50:10,400
fast-paced it's hard-hitting it's very

1253
00:50:15,750 --> 00:50:12,800
funny and and yes i have been involved

1254
00:50:17,510 --> 00:50:15,760
both in helping to get those programs up

1255
00:50:20,309 --> 00:50:17,520
and i did appear very briefly with the

1256
00:50:21,190 --> 00:50:20,319
cameo appearance in one of them um

1257
00:50:26,950 --> 00:50:21,200
they

1258
00:50:28,710 --> 00:50:26,960
specifically at swiss and um its use of

1259
00:50:31,190 --> 00:50:28,720
celebrities and also

1260
00:50:32,390 --> 00:50:31,200
nicole kidman it was a case in point and

1261
00:50:33,670 --> 00:50:32,400
they also

1262
00:50:35,910 --> 00:50:33,680
went into quite

1263
00:50:37,349 --> 00:50:35,920
good detail about how in one of swiss's

1264
00:50:40,549 --> 00:50:37,359
products um

1265
00:50:42,390 --> 00:50:40,559
when the complaints were upheld

1266
00:50:44,950 --> 00:50:42,400
they simply

1267
00:50:47,430 --> 00:50:44,960
re-listed the complaint with a new label

1268
00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:47,440
which again is a fairly common technique

1269
00:50:51,589 --> 00:50:49,440
to handle complaints with the

1270
00:50:53,589 --> 00:50:51,599
therapeutic goods administration

1271
00:50:55,990 --> 00:50:53,599
if you're at risk of actually having

1272
00:50:57,829 --> 00:50:56,000
your product de-listed then you just

1273
00:50:59,910 --> 00:50:57,839
create a new one much the same

1274
00:51:02,630 --> 00:50:59,920
ingredients different name and away you

1275
00:51:04,710 --> 00:51:02,640
go and that was the topic of the of the

1276
00:51:07,109 --> 00:51:04,720
checkout program and indeed the uniform

1277
00:51:08,790 --> 00:51:07,119
resource locators are on my website and

1278
00:51:10,150 --> 00:51:08,800
it's very amusing

1279
00:51:11,190 --> 00:51:10,160
now

1280
00:51:14,309 --> 00:51:11,200
they

1281
00:51:17,270 --> 00:51:14,319
the uh the checkup guys copped a lawsuit

1282
00:51:19,910 --> 00:51:17,280
from the founder of swiss um

1283
00:51:22,309 --> 00:51:19,920
of defamation that's still

1284
00:51:24,309 --> 00:51:22,319
buttering on as lawsuits do proceeding

1285
00:51:27,030 --> 00:51:24,319
at slow rates although i'm fairly

1286
00:51:28,870 --> 00:51:27,040
confident that um it hasn't really got

1287
00:51:32,390 --> 00:51:28,880
any substance to it

1288
00:51:34,069 --> 00:51:32,400
and certainly the checkout boys are

1289
00:51:35,750 --> 00:51:34,079
certainly haven't been restrained

1290
00:51:37,910 --> 00:51:35,760
there's a new series of a checkout

1291
00:51:40,549 --> 00:51:37,920
coming up and there's a wonderful promo

1292
00:51:43,030 --> 00:51:40,559
which again takes off swiss uh for the

1293
00:51:44,950 --> 00:51:43,040
new series again well worth looking at

1294
00:51:47,430 --> 00:51:44,960
and you perhaps might put the uniform

1295
00:51:49,750 --> 00:51:47,440
resource location uh on your on your

1296
00:51:51,910 --> 00:51:49,760
website uh it's really very funny but

1297
00:51:53,349 --> 00:51:51,920
again it shows a company and indeed

1298
00:51:55,750 --> 00:51:53,359
they've taken the complaint resolution

1299
00:51:57,670 --> 00:51:55,760
panel uh to court too to me it's a sad

1300
00:51:59,910 --> 00:51:57,680
reflection on the regulatory system i

1301
00:52:03,030 --> 00:51:59,920
mean in the beginning um these products

1302
00:52:05,109 --> 00:52:03,040
had a very light touch regulation uh in

1303
00:52:08,150 --> 00:52:05,119
australia it's they're basically

1304
00:52:09,990 --> 00:52:08,160
self-certified by the sponsors that they

1305
00:52:11,990 --> 00:52:10,000
are doing the right things in terms of

1306
00:52:13,750 --> 00:52:12,000
low-risk ingredients manufactured under

1307
00:52:16,069 --> 00:52:13,760
good manufacturing practice and they

1308
00:52:17,270 --> 00:52:16,079
hold the evidence uh handle their heart

1309
00:52:18,870 --> 00:52:17,280
that they

1310
00:52:21,349 --> 00:52:18,880
they've got the evidence to back up the

1311
00:52:23,910 --> 00:52:21,359
claims now it's just it's a trust based

1312
00:52:26,549 --> 00:52:23,920
system and we know that it's just just

1313
00:52:29,030 --> 00:52:26,559
people ride roughshod right through it

1314
00:52:31,430 --> 00:52:29,040
um but limited but post marketing

1315
00:52:33,430 --> 00:52:31,440
surveillance has been done shows 90

1316
00:52:35,030 --> 00:52:33,440
non-compliance there's a paper just

1317
00:52:37,589 --> 00:52:35,040
recently out actually getting some

1318
00:52:39,910 --> 00:52:37,599
publicity again uh showing a lot of

1319
00:52:41,430 --> 00:52:39,920
products available for sale and haven't

1320
00:52:42,710 --> 00:52:41,440
gone even through the listing system

1321
00:52:45,030 --> 00:52:42,720
aren't on the australian register

1322
00:52:47,030 --> 00:52:45,040
therapy goods have different ingredients

1323
00:52:48,710 --> 00:52:47,040
to what they're meant to have

1324
00:52:50,150 --> 00:52:48,720
if you have a trust-based system it gets

1325
00:52:52,309 --> 00:52:50,160
abused and that's what's happened in

1326
00:52:54,150 --> 00:52:52,319
australia regrettably well ken i

1327
00:52:56,950 --> 00:52:54,160
congratulate you on taking an ethical

1328
00:52:58,950 --> 00:52:56,960
stance on this issue and i i wonder if

1329
00:53:01,190 --> 00:52:58,960
just on finishing up did you imagine you

1330
00:53:03,510 --> 00:53:01,200
would create such a funeral because to

1331
00:53:05,510 --> 00:53:03,520
our overseas listeners who haven't been

1332
00:53:08,069 --> 00:53:05,520
around here recently it's been all over

1333
00:53:10,069 --> 00:53:08,079
the press everywhere you've created a

1334
00:53:11,349 --> 00:53:10,079
huge amount of media about your

1335
00:53:13,030 --> 00:53:11,359
resignation

1336
00:53:15,430 --> 00:53:13,040
no i didn't think it would

1337
00:53:17,910 --> 00:53:15,440
it would go so well but clearly i've

1338
00:53:19,349 --> 00:53:17,920
touched a number of nerves and many many

1339
00:53:20,950 --> 00:53:19,359
colleagues have

1340
00:53:24,549 --> 00:53:20,960
sent emails or rang me up and

1341
00:53:27,750 --> 00:53:24,559
congratulated me um so it's clearly

1342
00:53:29,910 --> 00:53:27,760
touched um a nerve and some sore points

1343
00:53:31,910 --> 00:53:29,920
people have also said i only wish that

1344
00:53:34,069 --> 00:53:31,920
we weren't so dependent upon university

1345
00:53:37,589 --> 00:53:34,079
salary and building our superannuation

1346
00:53:39,190 --> 00:53:37,599
it's hard for us to resign um and again

1347
00:53:41,270 --> 00:53:39,200
there's a lot of advantage in being in

1348
00:53:43,510 --> 00:53:41,280
the twilight of your career having an

1349
00:53:47,190 --> 00:53:43,520
adjunct honorary non-salaried

1350
00:53:50,150 --> 00:53:47,200
appointment much easier to resign and to

1351
00:53:51,589 --> 00:53:50,160
speak out at this point so yeah i'm

1352
00:53:53,349 --> 00:53:51,599
pleased i've done it and it certainly

1353
00:53:54,870 --> 00:53:53,359
created a stir

1354
00:53:57,190 --> 00:53:54,880
well you are our favorite cereal

1355
00:53:59,030 --> 00:53:57,200
complainer and consumer campaigner dr

1356
00:54:00,710 --> 00:53:59,040
ken harvey so we hope this isn't the

1357
00:54:03,030 --> 00:54:00,720
last we hear from you

1358
00:54:03,990 --> 00:54:03,040
no i'll keep on doing it okay thanks

1359
00:54:06,150 --> 00:54:04,000
again and thanks for being on the

1360
00:54:07,829 --> 00:54:06,160
skeptic zone ken hi

1361
00:54:09,349 --> 00:54:07,839
and for the links that ken was referring

1362
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:09,359
to in that interview please head to our

1363
00:54:14,470 --> 00:54:12,240
website at skepticzone.tv

1364
00:54:23,990 --> 00:54:14,480
and until next time this has been dr h

1365
00:54:26,710 --> 00:54:25,750
you see that ufo sighting that made the

1366
00:54:28,150 --> 00:54:26,720
news

1367
00:54:30,309 --> 00:54:28,160
what did that latest study about

1368
00:54:32,230 --> 00:54:30,319
alternative treatments really say

1369
00:54:33,430 --> 00:54:32,240
is this photo making the rounds real or

1370
00:54:35,030 --> 00:54:33,440
a hoax

1371
00:54:36,790 --> 00:54:35,040
duffle news is a unique website

1372
00:54:39,030 --> 00:54:36,800
featuring news about pseudoscience the

1373
00:54:41,510 --> 00:54:39,040
paranormal anomalies and questionable

1374
00:54:43,750 --> 00:54:41,520
claims framed with the skeptical view

1375
00:54:45,670 --> 00:54:43,760
come visit doubtfulnews.com every day

1376
00:54:48,950 --> 00:54:45,680
for news about cryptozoology

1377
00:54:51,670 --> 00:54:48,960
conspiracies shams scams and more

1378
00:54:53,190 --> 00:54:51,680
follow us on twitter at doubtfulnews

1379
00:54:54,950 --> 00:54:53,200
critical thinking is essential in

1380
00:54:56,950 --> 00:54:54,960
assessing today's news

1381
00:55:11,430 --> 00:54:56,960
duffle news helps you decide can you

1382
00:55:15,430 --> 00:55:13,430
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1383
00:55:17,910 --> 00:55:15,440
zone and as mentioned on the top of the

1384
00:55:20,230 --> 00:55:17,920
show in next week's episode we'll be

1385
00:55:21,510 --> 00:55:20,240
having details of how you can win that

1386
00:55:23,589 --> 00:55:21,520
cosmos

1387
00:55:25,109 --> 00:55:23,599
prize pack courtesy of the national

1388
00:55:27,990 --> 00:55:25,119
geographic channel

1389
00:55:29,670 --> 00:55:28,000
and a note for sydney ciders the next

1390
00:55:31,910 --> 00:55:29,680
australian skeptics dinner meeting will

1391
00:55:34,309 --> 00:55:31,920
be on march 29th

1392
00:55:38,230 --> 00:55:34,319
all about technophobia

1393
00:55:42,750 --> 00:55:38,240
so called wind farm syndrome and more

1394
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www.skeptics.com.a you and don't forget

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there's a special door prize one person

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will have their dinner

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free

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and thank you to all those people as

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wonderful people who chip in less than a

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dollar a week to help the skeptic's own

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uh stay online on air as it were and you

1402
00:56:05,109 --> 00:56:02,319
can uh chip in by visiting

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00:56:06,710 --> 00:56:05,119
www.skepticzone.tv

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and

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following the paypal links thank you

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again

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but for this week this is richard

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saunders

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looking

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staring wistfully off into the cosmos

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you've been listening to the skeptic

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zone